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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 1, 2009 15:02:50 GMT 12
Jimmy's statement about failure is something that many who've analysed the best of British comedy have concluded. The best characters, or at least most popular ones, are those who try to do their best but often don't quite make it. Look at Basil Fawlty, Granville in Open All Hours, Hancock, Peggy Ollerenshaw.
Whereas in US comedy often the central and popular character is the successful or cool one. Bart Simpson is the coolest kid, the Fonz, Jerry Seinfeld is the successful one surrounded by failures, etc. It's quite a different ethos.
This is perhaps why when US companies have attempted to adapt British shows to their own scripts, it fails as we're not used to seeing US characters as the failures of society.
As for the 'Lovely Boy' catchphrase, it is one that a genuine Sgt Major used to use when Windsor did National Service, so he thought it appropriate. It was meant as a demeaning term.
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Post by straycat on Mar 1, 2009 15:50:49 GMT 12
Yes, I see your point. And I have heard it said before that British comedy tends to be about failure while US comedies are always about success. (Though I think there have been exceptions. Ralph Kramden of the Honeymooners springs immediately to mind.)
Anyway, my mind had just never applied that theory of British comedy to DA. As I said, to me the salient point was that how ever many setbacks they ran into, they weren't about to give up. Which I think is a trait that most Americans value in the TV characters they admire. Even in the US shows where the main character is the cool one or the successful one, there usually seems to be one or more in the ensemble who repeatedly falls flat on his face ... then gets up, dusts himself off, and goes off to try again. And it seems to me that American audiences tend to warm to those lovable ne'er-do-wells in the cast, too.
Then again, maybe I just enjoyed Roadrunner cartoons a little too much when I was a little kid. LOL. Even at a tender age, it impressed me that no matter how many times Wile E. Coyote went over that cliff, he got right back up and went off to try something else. ;D
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Post by straycat on Mar 1, 2009 16:39:31 GMT 12
This is perhaps why when US companies have attempted to adapt British shows to their own scripts, it fails as we're not used to seeing US characters as the failures of society. Probably true in general -- though, again, there have been exceptions. Notably, Alf Garrett rewritten as Archie Bunker became a character Americans loved/loved to hate. In any case, the show was a smashing success -- lasted 11 years, I think it was. Same holds true for Steptoe & Son rewritten as Sanford and Son -- which made a less spectacular splash looking back on it decades later. Still, considering it ran at a time when shows centered around African-American characters were a rarity, Fred and Lamont Sanford became two pretty well-loved failures. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 3, 2009 8:29:14 GMT 12
True. Good points. I've never seen Sanford and Son and I don't think I want to because nothing could compare with Wilfred and Harry H.'s performances, but I've heard that the adaptation was well received.
One example I can think of in Men Behaving Badly, when it was adapted for US audiences they made the Martin Clunes character into a good looking cool guy and he had a hot girlfriend, where Clunes was much more of a loser and not so good looking, with a fat sarcastic girlfriend.
When the Brits actually came up with some central characters who were cool and hip and eveyone wanted to live like them (in Man About The House) the Americans turned them into corny goofballs in that appaullingly bad series Three's Company. Hmm.
One that actually did translate well was a fantastic British comedy about a sad lonely man, called Dear John, in which the lead actor was Ralph Bates. He died shortly after just 14 episodes were made sadly, as it had been popular and more would have come from it I think. But they took it to the USA and cast Judd Hirsch in the role and I seem to recall it was done with some empathy to the original and wasn't as crass as most US conversions. Just checking the Radio Times Guide To TV Comedy it was written by John Sullivan (of Only Fools and Horses fame) and the US version used his scripts in early episodes - that probably explains why it was good. He's a superb writer.
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Post by straycat on Mar 16, 2009 9:14:24 GMT 12
Did Michael Bates' cancer diagnosis come only before that final series of IAHHM that he did? Or did he get through more than one series during his fight with cancer? It was only during his last series that I thought it really obvious that he was not well and had had to slow down considerably. But then, it's possible he could have done an earlier series knowing he had the disease -- but it had not yet wracked his body to the point where it was as evident as in that final series. So I wondered, when did his cancer diagnosis come within the timeline of the making of Ain't Half Hot?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 16, 2009 10:23:39 GMT 12
No I think it came just before that final series, and he was fit and well in the previous series, from what I have been told. We are very fortunate he chose to cary on with the series and after being written out was in fact written back in. He had to opt out of his other starring role in Last of the Summer Wine that year as that role involved mostly walking where IAHHM involved mostly sitting. What a couragious and professional actor he was to go on with the series.
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Post by straycat on Mar 17, 2009 7:42:25 GMT 12
Thanks for the information. Yes, sticking with the show under those circumstances took a level of courage and determination that even Sgt. Major Williams himself (if he really existed) would have found praiseworthy. I believe it was Stuart McGugan on Comedy Connections who commented that Michael never made a big thing out of his illness. He just got on with his work.
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Post by straycat on Mar 17, 2009 9:16:45 GMT 12
Back with another question. (As you may have guessed by now, I've been rewatching some of IAHHM this past weekend.)
Did Don Estelle ever describe to you the club act that he and Windsor Davies did together back in the sixties? Mostly working-class clubs in northern England, from what little I read about their pre-IAHHM double act.
Was it perhaps a little like their 1975 Whispering Grass video? (... minus the army uniforms) -- i.e., Davies hamming it up, going for laughs while Estelle sang? Maybe interspersed with Davies even then playing the barking authoritarian picking on Estelle, the long-suffering "little guy?"
Of course, that's nothing but a guess. Could have been something altogether different than I'm imagining.
P.S. That whole mock-western-showdown scene in Monsoon Madness where Lofty calls him out, this-town-ain't-big-enough-for-both-of-us style, was priceless. So was the small shadow carrying big sledgehammer crossing the stage behind Gloria's Desert Song number.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 17, 2009 21:47:55 GMT 12
I don't recall ever hearing of Don and Windsor doing anything together in the 1960's, and I had thought the two never met till 1973 when they were cast in the show. After the release of Whispering Grass in 1975, they became much in demand and did a number of appearances. Don himself did most of his work in clubs in the North of England but I don't think Windsor ever joined him till after the 1975 hit. Have you got different information on this?
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Post by straycat on Mar 18, 2009 5:43:24 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2009 9:17:45 GMT 12
The home page currently shows the last post in this thread as being by bramleyman. Yet I can't get any bramleyman post to show up. The last one I see is Dave's. So I have no idea what bramleyman may have written on the subject. That shows up because I, as moderator, altered his original post title from It Ain't Arf Hot Mum to the accurate title of It Ain't Half Hot Mum (because it was bugging me that the show title was wrong). That's all, Bramleyman has not said anything for a while. As for the 1960's encounters of Don and Windsor, it is of course possible but as I said, I'd just not heard of it before. I will see if I can find more. |
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Post by Molly on Mar 18, 2009 14:07:00 GMT 12
I watched my first episode of "It Aint Half Hot Mum' last night. It took me a while to get into it, but it got funnier and funnier. It was an episode from series 5 called something like "Superstar." There was an airforce guy auditioning and singing and playing the piano. I don't know who he was but what a great actor! I'm just wondering about the comment about Don Estelle in a previous post about him saying he could "sing a bit." This is what the character said just before he auditioned in the episode I watched last night - I wonder if there was a connection. I think I'll start from the beginning with this series - looks like fun  |
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Post by straycat on Mar 18, 2009 14:47:39 GMT 12
Great, Dave. Let us know if and when you learn anything more about this.
Molly, that would have been Jeffrey Holland you were watching in Superstar. He landed regular roles in both of Perry & Croft's later creations -- Hi De Hi and You Rang M'Lord. I agree that he was hilarious in that IAHHM guest shot - the way he instantly transformed from super-nerd into super-entertainer and back again, over and over. If you watch the whole show from the start, you'll find Jeffrey Holland in a Series 4 episode as well -- playing one of the guys who has been way too long at an isolated RAF post and will not believe that Gloria isn't really a woman.
Yes, IAHHM is worth watching from the very beginning. It took me a few episodes to really get into it. But the more I watched, the more I enjoyed it.
(I kept hoping the same thing would happen with Hi De Hi, but it didn't. I wanted so much to like that show because I had loved P&C's other sitcoms and Hi De Hi was the only one left. I kept telling myself to keep watching and surely it would get better -- or, at any rate, grow on me. I went onto the P&C board and read all the intellectual reasons why I OUGHT TO enjoy it. But still I kept sitting there bored, bored, bored ... checking every two minutes to see how much longer till this episode would finally be over ... and pondering how the same team that created those three other shows I loved so much could be responsible for such unfunny drivel as this. To me it remains the one and only dud that P&C created together. I sat through about a series and a half before I finally gave up on it.)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2009 15:09:13 GMT 12
I think Hi-De-Hi is really more a specifically English thing, the whole set up is quintessentially British. Whereas the rest of the world can relate to miliary comedies and the universally funny class structures in the other shows, Hi-De-Hi will certainly be difficult to understand for many.
I likde the show as a kid, but as I've gotten older it is less appealling. I can still watch it and get a chuckle, especially the earlier ones with Simon Cadell who was brilliant, but it doesn't shine as brightly as You Rang M'Lord and the other two masterpieces for me. Still, it's 100% better than Oh Doctor Boredom
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Post by Molly on Mar 19, 2009 18:22:32 GMT 12
Thanks for that straycat. I googled Jeffrey Holland after you gave me the name and he looks really familiar. Yes I agree, the truly funny bit about that scence was the way he went from super-nerd to polished entertainer and back again. The site I found on him said he appeared in an episode of Dad's Army too as a soldier. Does anyone know which one?
I never really got into Hi-de-Hi either. I thought Su Pollard was great though.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 19, 2009 20:04:51 GMT 12
Jeff played a driver in an army truck in "Wake Up, Walmiington", and drives through a puddle splashing Mainwaring.
He also played Walker in the Stage Show after John Bardon left the run, plus some other characters in the show.
He was then in the two It Ain't Half Hot's mentioned above.
Then in Hi De Hi, and then You Rang M'Lord, and in Oh Doctor Beeching, and he also appeared in Jimmy Perry's radio series London Calling. So a real favourite actor of Jimmy and David.
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Post by Molly on Mar 20, 2009 18:22:12 GMT 12
Hi Dave,
Thanks for that - I must look out for him in that Dad's Army episode. I often see the same actors popping up in one or other of Jimmy Perry and David Croft's comedies. I'm reading a Graham McCann book at the moment and it's interesting to learn how Jimmy Perry and David Croft decided who would play who. I can't imagine Dad's Army with different people playing Mainwaring, Wilson or Jones, or any of the others too come to think of it.
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Post by straycat on Mar 29, 2009 12:16:50 GMT 12
Saw Dino Shafeek in a 1969 performance in a SPECIAL BRANCH episode titled The Promised Land. This was by no means a comedy performance like IAHHM. He played a Pakistani who had paid what we would call a coyote to smuggle him into England. (I don't know what the Brits call a coyote, but I have my doubts whether it's the same term we use for paid smugglers of human beings across the Mexican border.) However, the immigration authorities are waiting for them. Dino is the only one of the illegals who escapes immediate capture -- and is on the run literally from the moment he sets foot on British soil. Incidentally, the future IAHHM Sgt. Major was also there, playing the head of the immigration team that pounced on the new arrivals. However, he and Dino didn't play a scene together.
I didn't realize it was Dino till I saw him smile. That grin I recognized. And he didn't smile till he finally met another down-and-outter who gave him some help. So it was pretty far into the show before I knew who I was watching. He did a nice job with the serious acting role, I thought.
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Post by Molly on Mar 29, 2009 19:30:40 GMT 12
Yes, it does seem hard to imagine Dino Shafeek in a more serious acting role - he had such a smiley face. Or maybe it's just that I've only ever seen him in comedy roles. I suppose like all good actors he was pretty versatile. I'm not sure if they use the expression coyote in England, although, as you say, I very much doubt it. Do you know how the term "coyote" came about to mean smuggler of people? Interesting! Back to my "origin of language" fascination ;D
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Post by straycat on Mar 30, 2009 0:55:23 GMT 12
Do you know how the term "coyote" came about to mean smuggler of people? Interesting! Back to my "origin of language" fascination ;D Probably because coyote had long been southwestern slang for a contemptible person, especially a greedy or dishonest one. So it just naturally fits someone who preys on the desperation of Mexican nationals to get up north into Gringoland. Last I knew the coyotes' going rate was 1500 bucks a head. So they're certainly not taking these people across as an act of charity. |
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